Shoulders below hips - is it ever ok?

I had a lengthy discussion this weekend with a referee about the notion of "shoulders below hips". After reading the comments on the Stanford v PSU women's collegiate championship final, it seems this topic requires further discussion. (how does it feel to be the subject of our discussions Alison?)

At the forefront of the shoulders-below-hips issue is the technique known as "sealing".

Sealing occurs when, as the offensive players who arrives first to the breakdown, you bind tightly to the player on the ground. When done correctly, the player pulls the head and neck towards the shoulders, tensing everything in the front and back of the neck, and pulls the player on the ground towards the upper body, essentially creating a seamless "seal". This technique of "securing" the head and neck is known as "turtling". Players contesting the breakdown are free to counter-ruck and drive the sealed player off the ball, though a nice tight bind by the sealing player, and traditional "drive over" support by the supporting offensive players make it more challenging to contest for the ball. when done correctly, a seal does not kill the ball, in fact it makes it more playable for the team that arrived first to the breakdown. It completely eliminates some of the wild kicking that can occur at the breakdown, and it significantly cuts the number of players required to maintain possession at the breakdown.

At the highest level - Sealing is a no brainer. Do it, and do it well, or you won't get selected. From a coaching perspective, coaching the seal safely should be considered as critical as coaching safe scrummaging or safe tackling.

What's the point of contention for referees? Well, there are few. If the defense does not in fact contest the breakdown, and the sealing player came in with power (as they should, since the may very well transition from seal to clear-out mode as they arrive), the arriving players momentum may create a "diving over" scenario. At the higher levels, arriving players are not penalized for diving over, since that scenario does not present itself unless the breakdown is uncontested - in which case there since there no defense, a player who finds themselves on the other side of the downed ball carrier is neither impeding play, nor in a dangerous position (if theres no one around you to injure you, are you going to be injured?).

Many referees contend that, at the seal, since the shoulders are often below the hips, the act itself is inherently dangerous. And there is guidance to back this up.

So I suppose this is where discretion of an individual referee comes in. Do we apply the same standard of safely to a new, younger, or less physically mature player that we do with a fit, well trained, experienced player?

My discussion this weekend ended at an impasse - the specific take on sealing was that, if your butt was down and your head up, it was safe, since the shoulders were above the hips.

I disagree - in this scenario, players arriving from the defensive side of the breakdown can very easily drive a knee (unintentionally, simply in the act of rucking) into the sealing players face and chin, and players from the offensive side can easily drive the sealing player over the top of the downed player, simply by applying any pressure to the sealing player from behind.

In the "tight and turtled" scenario, the sealing player is in a modified 4 point stance, with their head securely nestled on the offensive side of the downed player, with their head and neck muscles in a solid and balanced position. Is their head below their shoulders? YES. But, if done correctly, you are literally pulling the downed player toward you, and, were you as a player, to let go, you'd remain on your feet.

Interestingly enough, this same weekend we ran into some challenges with our scrummaging style. Since the head is in a neutral position (imagine how your head sits on top of your body now, then simply bend at the waist without changing head position, and you'll see what that's like), the clear cut "head above hips" is hard to see. In fact, it looks like the head is exactly even with the hips (which, is what this particular style calls for). Since guidance is "head above hips, always and forever", this style of scrummaging has drawn some angst from many in the referee circuits. Which, lets face it, is a problem - since this style of scrummaging is being taught throughout the country, to men and women of all ages, as the way WE (USA) are going to scrum.

What to do? I'd love to hear from a high level (B1 etc) ref on the matter ... At this point, on game day - I have no idea what to expect. With the ELV's looming on the horizon, it seems we'd better sort this all out.